idebunkforme

Debunking the web, one uneducated corner at a time.

Month: December, 2012

Yet Another Rebuttal to Mohamed Alsous (@meta4malsous) on Twitter

Mohamed Alsous (@meta4malsous) on Twitter finally replied to another point in my takedown of his “dismantling of atheists.”

As you can see, he’s bypassed point two. He insists others admit that, if they don’t respond to a claim of his, it means that they must admit that he’s right. Hypocrisy in action.

Here again are his responses. My responses will be in red.

Me: The big bang theory the most popular theory to the beginning of the universe, factors in an energy or infinitely dense matter that somehow for some reason exploded, yet never (and cannot) explains How energy entered into this equation? What caused the explosion..? Such questions that when thinking about point to an intelligent designer. And we know this from edward hubbles experiment which later concluded to the big bang that the universe had a beginning, now where does the beginning come from..? How could it even come in to play without any matter/energy present? Well my friends that leaves you utterly quiet because God, a source ABOVE the natural laws not bound by them is the only answer.

Him: It didn’t explode. It expanded. While matter and antimatter annihilated each other. This does not require an intelligent designer, merely a considerable understanding of the models put forward to explain all available evidence. You can’t put a placeholder into the mix, stating it’s your god, and it becomes valid until there’s a better explanation, when that god does not explain anything at all. How did your god do this? Where did that god come from? Without these, the premise of this god adds complexity and more unknowns to explaining the universe, which would be the opposite direction the scientific method leads our understanding.

That is absolutely false, the big bang is the explosion of an infinitely dense matter (singularity) This is said to have created – Time, energy, and matter. This also refutes when the moron said energy was eternal because this is the first time energy can be traced back to it. Anyway, you said all available evidence, lol please share some? As i stated earlier the big bang contradicts all laws of science which is why it still remains a theory, and im not discrediting the big bang i think it’s the best theory (as it’s stated in the quran) but science cannot explain how the universe didn’t continue exploding, HOW IT EVEN EXPLODED..? there was no energy before the big bang, from where does an explosion that creates the whole universe come, from nothing? How did the newly created particles form planets, and from those planets a planet that support life? NOT only that, a planet that revolves are the sound in order to maintain temperature. Science is completely baffled by that. Why doesn’t the earth just stay stationary, it has no mind of its own. Yet you’ll conveniently say oh well it just happened by chance, just like evolution, just like the big bang, just like any other anomaly you can’t find an answer too. Sorry bro i don’t believe in constant miracles over and over again without someone doing them. Anyone can tell you an intelligent design is a better assumption then chance by chance happening over again in our favor. Whether u admit it in arrogance or not is your own doing. My God as well as your God explains it quite clearly in the quran actually. Take a look at it sometime.

Yes, he’s calling me a moron in his reply, after reiterating that the big bang erroneously was an explosion. It was an expansion. See point two on this page for further explanation.

The big bang also did not create energy. The energy present was from conversion of particles into energy, and also the heat from the origins of the universe. These, again, were explained to him, yet he creates a straw man, yet again, to try to defeat. As you can see, he argues that I say one thing which is refuted by something else I said, when he gets both statements wrong.

He also demands evidence, yet all he produces when asked for evidence are quotes from the Quran. Rather than rewrite what’s already easily available (in fact, the first link returned on Google for big bang evidence), I will just offer TalkOrigins’ collection of evidence for the big bang.

Just the fact that he argues a science “still remains a theory” automatically discounts any arguments he has about science. To say such a thing, being ignorant about what theory means in science, shows that his opinions on any science are meaningless. Because of this, I’ll skip his opinions on science until he can demonstrate an understanding of the basics of science.

And, really, this paragraph is useless to respond to further, as he reiterates that the big bang was an explosion ad nauseum.

When describing the creation of the “heavens and the earth,” the Quran does not discount the theory of a “Big Bang” explosion at the start of it all. In fact, the Quran says that “the heavens and the earth were joined together as one unit, before We clove them asunder” (21:30).
Following this big explosion, Allah “turned to the sky, and it had been (as) smoke. He said to it and to the earth: ‘Come together, willingly or unwillingly.’
{Another scientific miracle that smoke, a clear, scene after the big bang occurred.} dense-less, cloud was the BEST way to describe the
They said: ‘We come (together) in willing obedience'” (41:11). Thus the elements and what was to become the planets and stars began to cool, come together, and form into shape, following the natural laws that Allah established in the universe.

As stated in another reply, the earth did not exist in any capacity at the beginning of the universe. Heavier elements that comprise the earth would still be billions of years away. Insisting that the Quran explains the origins of the universe while ignoring this point is a sign of either intellectual dishonesty or wishful thinking.

The initial state of the universe was not smoke. It was plasma. Dense, extremely hot matter so unstable that it could not bind to other particles until it cooled down.

And he presents no evidence that the quotes are based on reality. Quoting the Quran does not establish any credence to their validity. Especially when Mohamed attempts time and time again to turn poetic swaths into scientific knowledge.

The Quran further states that Allah created the sun, the moon, and the planets, each with their own individual courses or orbits. “It is He Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon; all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course” (21:33).

The Quran could state that Allah predicted American Idol, it doesn’t mean that it actually happened. Independent verification is needed, and so far, none has been presented. Planetary orbits were known in Ancient Greece, as far back as the 4th century BCE. Definitely not divine revelation.

Expansion of Universe

The Quran also does not rule out the idea that the universe is continuing to expand. “The heavens, We have built them with power. And verily, We are expanding it” (51:47)

Who knew that the universe expanded 1400 years ago Lol? Edward hubble discovered it in the 20th century.

Unfortunately for Mohamed, I went to read the passage here. And it does not have the context he claims it does. 51:24-51

Has there reached you the story of the honored guests of Abraham? –

When they entered upon him and said, “[We greet you with] peace.” He answered, “[And upon you] peace, [you are] a people unknown.

Then he went to his family and came with a fat [roasted] calf

And placed it near them; he said, “Will you not eat?”

And he felt from them apprehension. They said, “Fear not,” and gave him good tidings of a learned boy.

And his wife approached with a cry [of alarm] and struck her face and said, “[I am] a barren old woman!”

They said, “Thus has said your Lord; indeed, He is the Wise, the Knowing.”

[Abraham] said, “Then what is your business [here], O messengers?”

They said, “Indeed, we have been sent to a people of criminals

To send down upon them stones of clay,

Marked in the presence of your Lord for the transgressors.”

So We brought out whoever was in the cities of the believers.

And We found not within them other than a [single] house of Muslims.

And We left therein a sign for those who fear the painful punishment.

And in Moses [was a sign], when We sent him to Pharaoh with clear authority.

But he turned away with his supporters and said,” A magician or a madman.”

So We took him and his soldiers and cast them into the sea, and he was blameworthy.

And in ‘Aad [was a sign], when We sent against them the barren wind.

It left nothing of what it came upon but that it made it like disintegrated ruins.

And in Thamud, when it was said to them, “Enjoy yourselves for a time.”

But they were insolent toward the command of their Lord, so the thunderbolt seized them while they were looking on.

And they were unable to arise, nor could they defend themselves.

And [We destroyed] the people of Noah before; indeed, they were a people defiantly disobedient.

And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander.

And the earth We have spread out, and excellent is the preparer.

And of all things We created two mates; perhaps you will remember.

So flee to Allah. Indeed, I am to you from Him a clear warner.

And do not make [as equal] with Allah another deity. Indeed, I am to you from Him a clear warner.

The expansion is done by people, not by any deity. Another dead end for his claims of divine revelation.

Furthermore a God does not complex anything, in fact it provides insight and reason as to why the universe was created, why it maintains itself as such with the orbits, and it not continually collapsing on its self over and over again. And explains why so many anomalies can happen, such as the 5 – 10 examples i gave of extreme examples in my earlier argument. You make things complicated when u try to take God out of the equation which is why you have so many holes in your theories, because a lot of the anomalies in science don’t make sense, such as the big bang, such as the earth rotating around the sun in order to maintain life, such as gravity, such as every single organism in the earth able to find its sustenance on earth.

And the insight and reason into these are . . . ? The “fine-tuned” argument was already debunked.

And things get less complicated when a deity is removed from the equation. With a deity, the explanation is pushed back onto another level; this requires the how, and also what that deity is, exactly. Where did it come from? How does it operate? And so forth. It doesn’t answer any questions, since “godidit” doesn’t explain anything.

As stated earlier, the earth does not rotate around the sun. It revolves around the sun. It rotates on its axis. And how are any of these points unable to “make sense” in science?

“Indeed, within the heavens and earth are signs for the believers.
And in the creation of yourselves and what He disperses of moving creatures are signs for people who are certain [in faith].
And [in] the alternation of night and day and [in] what Allah sends down from the sky of provision and gives life thereby to the earth after its lifelessness and [in His] directing of the winds are signs for a people who reason.” (43: 2-5)

Allah points out sign after sign, convenience after convenience that you’ve brushed off, not only that,you deny that and say it’s all by chance? That is the most foolish thought of them all.

Another straw man. No one’s arguing that things are by chance. In the previous reply, it was stated that the quote from Stephen Hawking was mined, and that he explained that the timing was due to natural laws, and not a lucky happenstance. Quoting from the Quran does not explain anything, and mostly it is an attempt to reinterpret what men wrote to be something more than it really is.

“These are the verses of Allah which We recite to you in truth. Then in what statement after Allah and His verses will they believe?” (43:6)

Note that he never addressed my questions about where his god comes from. Like point 2, he can’t answer it without admitting he is wrong. He cannot declare that science is full of holes for not having all the answers, and not have all the answers for his hole-less explanation of his deity.

He also has refused to update his previous response that had a straw man argument in it as well, even after admitting that it was. He’s still missing the rest of my replies of my original post. It does appear that he simply cannot refute real science, and disappears into his ignorance and mining quotes from the Quran to try to prove that the Quran is really divine revelation.

Debunked, again.

I suggest that, instead of wasting my time, Mohamed Alsous actually researches science first, and stops posting utter nonsense and quotes from the Quran. If he can demonstrate without quoting from the Quran that his deity exists and is capable of the stories in the Quran, then I’ll listen. Otherwise, it’s just another useless reply.

Advertisements

Another Rebuttal to Mohamed Alsous (@meta4malsous) on Twitter

This is a reply to a rebuttal from TwitLonger of one of my earlier points.

His post is in gray. My original response is in blue, new response in red.

This is false. We have a pretty good understanding of how the universe began, if one defines the universe as the visible spacetime we currently reside in. The big bang theory best explains, based on all available evidence, the origins of spacetime. We have the background radiation, the redshift of galaxies moving apart, and the mathematics that, when we reverse this movement, shows a singularity when everything once occupied an infinitely hot, infinitely dense point before time and space. The natural laws we observe only work in the universe we can observe. We can’t observe spacetime before it began to exist.

From where did the energy for the big bang to occur happen? Don’t tell me you know because then you should have already won some great prestige by now. Because even the big bang theory itself contradicts the law of conservation of energy and matter, hence it remaining a theory not being established as a fact, I would however like to note i do agree with the big bang theory SOLEY, because the Quran mentions it as the beginning of the universe: (Mentioned 1400 years ago by the way)
Quran 21:31 Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were a closed-up mass (ratqan), then We clove them asunder (fataqna)? And We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?”

The energy likely always was. The model of the singularity is everything that was before spacetime. Just as theists love to claim that their god had always existed, it is possible that, before spacetime, everything in the singularity always was. Since, well, there is no time before spacetime.

The quote from the Quran would be wrong. The earth did not exist at the beginning of the universe. The atoms that comprise the earth didn’t exist at the beginning of the universe. They were forged in stars that died over billions and billions of years. This is, yet again, a poetic attempt to explain the unknown that is being manipulated to try to match what science discovers, if one ignores that it is vague and, as stated earlier, flat out wrong on its premise.

Here we have the clear catalyst of the big bang, without GOD, this COULD not have happened there was no energy for this to have happened otherwise.

Mohamed assumes there was no energy. But energy is produced from the annihilation of matter and antimatter, which is what caused the expansion of the big bang. The creation of these particles from the singularity had energy in the form of heat. So there is still no need of any deity to explain these aspects.

Now what else does that verse say? From every living thing was made from water. Cells are 80% water. And cells are the basic structure of all life but u already knew that. Who knew these 2 facts 1400 years ago…?

This would be fascinating, had Thales in the 6th century BCE not already theorized that water was the principle element of everything, including living creatures. It would also be more fascinating if Surah 15:26 didn’t say, “We created the human being from aged mud, like the potter’s clay.” Or Surah 30:20 didn’t say, “Among His proofs is that He created you from dust, then you became reproducing humans.” These aren’t revelations, but copying from earlier texts. The Bible, for one, describes creating man from the dust of the earth.

This shows that Mohamed Alsous (@meta4malsous) again seems to be copying his arguments and not really understanding how to defend them.

In Reply to Mohamed Alsous (@meta4malsous) on Twitter

This is a reply to this tweet: https://twitter.com/meta4malsous/status/283354267119661057, and the TwitLonger: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/kfiigo.

His post remains in gray. My replies are in red.

You claim, and whine, and beg for the evidence to be presented to you, yet any time your theories come under scrutiny such as, Umm idk?

When someone makes a claim against our collective knowledge, then yes, evidence is required for anyone to accept such a claim. Science is well-established. All one has to do is pick up the appropriate journals, do the experiments yourself, and discover that yes, those theories and facts and laws are valid.

1. You have no understanding nor even guess as to how the universe was started, your own natural laws work against every single theory you try to come up with

This is false. We have a pretty good understanding of how the universe began, if one defines the universe as the visible spacetime we currently reside in. The big bang theory best explains, based on all available evidence, the origins of spacetime. We have the background radiation, the redshift of galaxies moving apart, and the mathematics that, when we reverse this movement, shows a singularity when everything once occupied an infinitely hot, infinitely dense point before time and space. The natural laws we observe only work in the universe we can observe. We can’t observe spacetime before it began to exist.

2. The first law of thermodynamics, states that if things are left un attended to, they resort to becoming chaos. Let’s apply that law, the universe, THE BIGGEST open system known to us, is completely ordained, maintained, and and perfectly suited for what it does. So why doesn’t the universe go into chaos? Who’s maintaining it because the universe is indifferent to what happens in it, killing all life forms, blowing up planets, nothing has significance to it as it has no mind. So then why does it stay orderly?

Um, no. The first law of thermodynamics states that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed, only that they change forms and can flow into other systems; any closed system’s total energy will remain the same. What you’re thinking of is the second law of thermodynamics, which states that in any closed system, entropy tends toward equilibrium. The universe itself is not an open system, unless you’re aware of another universe that actively trades energy with our own? The universe is tending toward chaos, a heat death, that will take many billions of years to achieve. There is no one needed to “maintain it,” since your arguments thus far show ignorance of the basic physics of the universe.

3. The big bang theory the most popular theory to the beginning of the universe, factors in an energy or infinitely dense matter that somehow for some reason exploded, yet never (and cannot) explains How energy entered into this equation? What caused the explosion..? Such questions that when thinking about point to an intelligent designer. And we know this from edward hubbles experiment which later concluded to the big bang that the universe had a beginning, now where does the beginning come from..? How could it even come in to play without any matter/energy present? Well my friends that leaves you utterly quiet because God, a source ABOVE the natural laws not bound by them is the only answer.

It didn’t explode. It expanded. While matter and antimatter annihilated each other. This does not require an intelligent designer, merely a considerable understanding of the models put forward to explain all available evidence. You can’t put a placeholder into the mix, stating it’s your god, and it becomes valid until there’s a better explanation, when that god does not explain anything at all. How did your god do this? Where did that god come from? Without these, the premise of this god adds complexity and more unknowns to explaining the universe, which would be the opposite direction the scientific method leads our understanding.

4. The fine tuning of the universe is the clearest most explicit proof to the being of a creator, you’re celebrity stephen hawking notes in his book, had the big bang lasted more than one quintillionth of a second longer, there would be no life as we see today. That’s point a.
b. Ratio of Electrons:Protons 1:10^37
Ratio of Electromagnetic Force:Gravity 1:10^40
Expansion Rate of Universe 1:10^55
Mass Density of Universe1 1:10^59
Cosmological Constant 1:10^120

Try better grammar, please. It’s “your celebrity,” not “you’re celebrity.” And Stephen Hawking would be capitalized. His argument is that the rate of expansion was due to the density of the very early universe. Thus, it wasn’t fine-tuning, but the natural result of physical properties of the universe. These numbers are irrelevant to any fine-tuning argument, because there is nothing for anyone to compare these against. What if the universe had slightly different values? What would it look like? How would we know? Thus, an argument of fine-tuning is based on faulty logic and unfalsifiable arguments.

The value on the right indicated the MAXIMUM deviation allowed for the constant on the right, these are values learned in physics. Please tell me how all 6 of the previously stated values are at basically perfectly suited for us to be living in, anyone of these values if corrupted immediately would destroy life as we know it.

As stated above, there is nothing to compare these to, so there’s no way to determine that they’re perfectly suited for us to be living in. Perhaps there’s another set even more ideal for life to originate. From our understanding, it took about ten billion years for the only lifeforms we’ve ever known to arise in this universe. Is that really the most perfectly suited universe for life to originate? How can we tell?

Let’s take a look at the sun, the source of warmth for us, is approximately 150 x 10^6 km from us, had it been at most 5,00 miles closer or further we would have either burned or froze, What keeps the sun from moving YET at the same time keeps the earth rotating around it so it fully covers all parts of the globe by it?

Is that 5 miles or 5,000 miles? If so, then we’d have burned or froze already if your argument is valid. The earth’s distance from the sun changes 3.1 million miles over the course of the year. Yet, we’re still here year after year. In fact, the earth could be tens of millions of miles closer or farther away from the sun, on average, and still be comfortable for life to arise.

The sun is moving. It’s spiraling around the outskirts of the Milky Way, which itself is moving through space.The earth doesn’t rotate around the sun, but it does revolve around it. Rotate is a spin around an object’s axis.

5. The presence of gravity, the gravitation pull on earth as i’m sure you’ve noticed is perfectly suited for us, not pushing us so hard we can’t move, and not so light that we are flying, Yet in space there is no gravity as you already knew. The gravitational pull is also RIGHT at the core of the earth meaning it pulls all in every direction so that everyone on earth is influenced by it. Now wait, in the presence of the big bang, how could an explosion create an on going permanent force? Ok you may argue matter can be clung together threw particles but where is your argument for a force coming into being that perfectly suits us in our living environment.

Gravity on earth could have been the same as on the moon and still life would have arisen. Gravity is not an essential factor in life. Experiments have been happening on the International Space Station and the Mir before that to germinate plants in microgravity. Thus, gravitational pull is nonessential to life existing.

The big bang is the expansion of the singularity into what is now spacetime. It is an event, not a sentient force. The properties of the physical universe existed when spacetime existed. And since it’s already been shown that gravity is not necessary for life to arise, gravity is not a force that “perfectly suits us in our living environment.”

That my friends is a handpicked few points that i have put together to illustrate my point in a few minutes, i have not even gotten started on the consistency of nature/ genetics/ statistics against evolution, etc.
Get Up.

Then you’ve failed on every single one. I assumed, as your tweet stated, that this would have dismantled us. There wasn’t even a single valid argument. You may want to get up yourself, and try to get an education in the subjects you argue are wrong. That may help you have a more comprehensive discussion.

Your Daily Dose of Creationist Stupidity

From the laughably stupid Conservapedia…

Why not take a tragedy that leaves a baby an orphan and many people witness to a suicide to score points for your religious delusions? That’s how Conservapedia played out the recent news about Jovan Belcher of the Kansas City Chiefs.

stupidity20121202

%d bloggers like this: